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supporter graphic  tripod2000
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quoting: sweetpealv123

Also, they made a good point about hospitals not having to conform to these standards for other operations. To single out one type of surgical procedure because some people have objections to it is wrong.


Hippocrates may be somewhat less relevant today but abortion can easily be seen to cross the line of "do no harm". I do not believe for a second it's just another surgical procedure. I think you're over simplifying.
quote / posted 03 July 2011 3:28 AM
billybob_george
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Click for profile 		Yeah, and that's your personal opinion and while it's great and all, it doesn't have anything to do with .. anything.

In context, abortion is just another surgical procedure. The excuse for the crazy regulations re: changing areas, room sizes, temperatures (the list goes on..) is "safety of the patients". Not even proper hospitals who do properly scary surgeries have to comply with said regulations, but abortion is somehow different? Only morally. What we have is a state deliberately trying to circumvent a supreme court ruling with beyond shady reasoning.

[This post edited by billybob_george on 03 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 03 July 2011 5:02 AM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Thats a bit rediculous....abortions should be treated the same as any surgical procedure....
quote / posted 03 July 2011 5:30 AM
DementedLeaf
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quoting: Secrets*Untold
Leila....In 90% of cases people find out they're pregnant within 8 weeks....by which point I'd be inclined to believe that any baby thats harmed from medication will probably have been spontaneously aborted anyway. And if not, at 12 weeks you will probably know when they do the first scan as theyre amazingly detailed now, so thats a decision that can be made then. As I'm a firm believer in if the childs life is going to be nothing but pain and illness, then that child deserves to not have to experience that.


I still don't really know enough about this, I think, but I can think of at least one example of medicines causing damage but not resulting in miscarriages... of course, it probably would've been very obvious on a scan.
What about parents with hereditary mental health conditions? Can't really check for that with a scan, but it's entirely possible for them to make life a misery, even with medications.


Shelly - I don't think I'd want people too irresponsible to look after themselves to become responsible for children, and what about those who get pregnant through failure of birth control? In terms of judging, I mean...
quote / posted 03 July 2011 7:28 AM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Then thats the job of the parents/medical professionals/ Cafcass/Social Workers combined to decide whats best for the child on birth....why should the child be denied the chance of life just because its parent(S) are incapable to raise it alone properly?
quote / posted 03 July 2011 10:06 AM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Also, during pregnancy and before (if there is a reasonable chance of conception during time of taking medication) doctors do weigh up the necessity and decide whether the potential birth defects and affect on mum/baby outweigh the positives of mum taking the drugs. Doctors are massively careful now and as I said earlier, the 12 week scan can show up so much amazing things...and the "baby" is still only about 1.5 inches long...
quote / posted 03 July 2011 10:09 AM
billybob_george
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quote:
Shelly - I don't think I'd want people too irresponsible to look after themselves to become responsible for children, and what about those who get pregnant through failure of birth control? In terms of judging, I mean...


I didn't mean to imply that I'd want them to raise children, and I did say "barring proper birth control failure..". I know from experience that it happens.

[This post edited by billybob_george on 03 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 03 July 2011 10:37 AM
69_02
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Click for profile 		i think a lot about the idea of humanity vs society and i think this is the best exemplification of it; my feelings on abortion can be summarised in that - if i got pregnant half of me would want to just go and live in a cave and raise my babies, but half of me would abort asap. i think it's completely unnatural that people of child-bearing age *dont* have children, but at the same time i make the compromises of not doing so because i enjoy (some of) the benefits of the society that i live in that dictates that it's a stupid idea for me to have kids right now.

i have really mixed feelings about abortion; not due to morality but more due to wtf what else are we here for than to procreate?
quote / posted 03 July 2011 6:01 PM
smurf19
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Click for profile 		I have to disagree with the people in this thread who feel that someone must be completely irresponsible in order to accidentally concieve. I think that things happen. I think people forget the occasional birth control pill or get the condom on too late. I also think that birth control can be incredibly expensive. Condoms, birth control pills, etc, cost money. I think it's easy to say, well, if you can't afford birth control, then you can't afford a baby and therefore you shouldn't be fucking, but that's completely unrealistic. Poorer people are going to have sex and yet again, this is an example of where poverty begets poverty. There are also a ton of people who simply don't have access to things like plan b because of where they live, whether it be a rural area or a conservative area.

Also, while I 'm pro choice, I understand why it's such a difficult debate. If you truly believe that life begins at conception, then abortion is murder plain and simple. There's no grey area. So arguments about poverty and quality of life and choice are meaningless, because they honestly believe that you're ok with murder. So while I don't agree with their arguments and especially not their tactics, I can understand why they can't compromise and find a middle ground.
quote / posted 03 July 2011 9:16 PM
supporter graphic  Un-Jelli
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quoting: smurf19

Also, while I 'm pro choice, I understand why it's such a difficult debate. If you truly believe that life begins at conception, then abortion is murder plain and simple. There's no grey area. So arguments about poverty and quality of life and choice are meaningless, because they honestly believe that you're ok with murder. So while I don't agree with their arguments and especially not their tactics, I can understand why they can't compromise and find a middle ground.


This is exactly how I feel when ever I hear people refer to those who are pro-life as immoral, or otherwise inherently bad people.

Also, back to the whole poverty aspect. What I find the MOST abhorrent in all of this, is that planned parenthood is losing all funding in so many places.

They provide affordable birth control! They are, in a way, the key to REDUCING unwanted pregnancy for those people. BAH!
quote / posted 04 July 2011 7:30 AM
Brutal+Unicorn
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Click for profile 		In Indiana, they are taking away a ton of government funding for Planned Parenthood, which is a huge debate. There was this awesome commercial made about it though, I'll have to try to look it up.

And I agree with Leah.
quote / posted 04 July 2011 8:50 AM
Brutal+Unicorn
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Click for profile 		http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmQhCWfXu2o&feature=share
quote / posted 04 July 2011 8:52 AM
Add_Ellen
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Click for profile 		This thread is depression. Abortion should be legal and easily available for every single woman.

Moral, normative, religious judgments have no place in the abortion debate. If you're against abortion because of your religion or any other reason then guess what? YOU don't have to have one. I find it disgusting that religion can actually still impact women's lives in this way in 2011.

It isn't a matter of "pro-life" either. Everyone is pro life. I love life, but would have an abortion if I got pregnant tomorrow. A more accurate label is "Anti-Choice", because that's what the anti-abortion debate effectively boils down to, taking a woman's right to choose what happens to her body.
quote / posted 05 July 2011 6:13 AM
ThePsychedelicFactory
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Click for profile 		I'm pretty sure nobody in this entire thread used 'religion' to justify a position Ellen -so if that comment was directed at anyone here, it was pretty much out of nowhere. Also, if you (as I do) believe that it's a human life before birth, then abortion does not simply affect the mother, it affects the child too - a child who can't stand up for itself, so I hardly think it's a case of just interfering with someone else's body.

Wanna respond to other bits in thread, but I'm just running out, so shall do later.
quote / posted 05 July 2011 7:37 AM
supporter graphic  Un-Jelli
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Click for profile 		Although I totally agree that "Pro-life" is a stupid name for that side, I think it boils down to which rights are the most important in this situation. The right of a fetus to get a chance at life, or the right of a woman to choose what happens to her body.

As much as I am pro-choicce, the more I think about it from another person's perspective, the more I can understand how some might feel that this would only be violating a woman's right for about 9 months, but ending all possibilities for said fetus.
I however, still think that's it's not yet a person or anything. And some women are in a place in which carrying a child is simply not an option, for what ever reason.
quote / posted 05 July 2011 7:38 AM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Thanks Ellen for being a perfect example of my concern about the cavlier attitudes people seem to have to abortions these days. None of us are arguing that abortions should be illegal. Just our own opinion on whether they are right.
quote / posted 05 July 2011 7:48 AM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		It didn't look especially cavalier to me... just like Ellen has already decided what she'd do if it happened, despite precautions. Of course, I may be getting the idea of precautions from nowhere.

And maybe no-one in this thread is saying abortions should be illegal, but what about the people creating these new laws for clinics? They seem to be saying it in the most underhanded way possible.

Also, Shelly, I did read what you'd said. It just wasn't - and isn't - clear to me whether you merely judge the non-stupid groups less harshly or if you don't judge them for it.
quote / posted 05 July 2011 8:30 AM
supporter graphic  Un-Jelli
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Click for profile 		I think that saying that moral judgements have no place in this argument is a pretty ridiculous statement, as saying that making abortion illegal is infringing on women's rights, and therefore wrong, is a moral judgement.
quote / posted 05 July 2011 8:51 AM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Its cavalier in the way she's convinced herself thats what shes going to do before the possibility of it has even arisen....so now she's kind of stuck with that choice before even thinking it through
quote / posted 06 July 2011 6:00 AM
Add_Ellen
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Click for profile 		This thread is very interesting, and I will definitely reply to all of the comments/criticisms of what I said soon, but ironically I haven't got time because I am off to a pro-choice rally in London.

What I will say quickly is that arguing that a woman should have complete autonomy over her body is not a 'moral judgement'. I thought we all agreed that women should have equal rights and this is a huge part of that. Also, Beth, I love you but that comment about me having a cavalier attitude to abortion and am somehow pushing myself into the position where I have to have one if an accident happens is utterly ridiculous. I am saying that if I got pregnant right now I'd have an abortion. The operative fact is that I am lucky enough to have the right to choose what happens to my body, regardless of anyone else's (in my opinion) unfounded sentimental attachment to a bunch of cells. It all boils down to my belief that human rights apply to human people, not unborn foetuses.
quote / posted 09 July 2011 5:44 AM

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