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GhanaGurl_42
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[This post edited by Evanich on 08 December 2011 ]

quote / posted 01 July 2011 11:26 AM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Soooooo they have to leave America for an abortion?
quote / posted 01 July 2011 11:56 AM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		Only Kansas, as I understand it... I think they said the nearest available clinic would be in Missouri.
quote / posted 01 July 2011 12:41 PM
Tiresias
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Click for profile 		People are obstinately stupid. Not that much to discuss, not that much to do about it.

Also, that "not in Kansas" line has been way over-used! I demand a moratorium on it for about 20 years... although pretty cleverly used here!
quote / posted 01 July 2011 1:03 PM
CaptainPlanet
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Click for profile 		Kansas is a scared, cornered animal.
quote / posted 01 July 2011 2:04 PM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		In which case it should be glad we're not in it.
quote / posted 01 July 2011 2:58 PM
ThePsychedelicFactory
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quoting: Tiresias
People are obstinately stupid. Not that much to discuss, not that much to do about it.[\quote]


I am against abortion. I once did a big research project on it (medical research, case studies, religious perspectives, philosophical arguments etc) -so I would say I'm fairly informed on it. I still believe that human life begins at conception, and that abortion is wrong. I totally appreciate that it's extraordinarily complex, and that there are many very convincing arguments offered in favour of abortion, and the issue is often handled terribly and insensitively by people who are 'pro-life'. At the same time, I'm not sure it's fair to say there's nothing to discuss because you are in favour of it. Just sayin'.
quote / posted 01 July 2011 6:19 PM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		The point may have been more that forcing beliefs or actions on others is... frequently seen as a bad thing, especially when it involves taking away the right to make decisions about a person's own body.
Even more so when it's based on a system of belief not shared by the whole group - if abortion services are available, no-one has to use them. If they're not, no-one has a choice.

Personally, I hate the idea of abortions and am of the opinion that it'd be much better if they were never... useful/necessary. It's just that, as far as I can see, the world doesn't work like that. Contraceptive methods fail and so on, and I'd much rather have the option available while doing my best to avoid ever needing it. Also, there's the issue of what to do about people on medications known to cause problems when taken during gestation...
quote / posted 01 July 2011 6:51 PM
ThePsychedelicFactory
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Click for profile 		I hear you Leila Smile But, isn't the law inherently about taking away the 'right' to do something often. Like, a burglar might be like 'well hey, I wanna steal, stop taking away my right'. But the law is based upon preserving the rights of others, too. I'm not sure it's exclusively about the woman's body - if you believe that it's a human life inside of her, then it's a decision about that life, too. The UN declaration for human rights states 'Everyone has a right to life'. It could be argued that the child who is being aborted is not being given rights. Also - and I am really not wanting to upset and antagonise here, and recognise this is a delicate issue - but having looked at the medical stuff on abortions, how some of them are carried out is somewhat horrific and unpleasant for the baby.
quote / posted 01 July 2011 7:26 PM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		The first thing to come to mind for that first point was the whole "right to an education" thing - it remains only an attempt to take away people's right to ignorance, but it still seems like a positive right to me.

I don't know. It does seem that laws are generally in place to prevent harm rather than to allow people to have fun regardless of whether it hurts others, which fits with what you're saying, but - while I'll accept that the zygote/embryo/fœtus* is composed of human cells - I would put a fully-formed, relatively self-sufficient human (in whom decades have already been invested) before an essentially parasitic organism, human or otherwise.
...I especially dislike the idea of abortions past the stage where the fœtus could (at least theoretically) survive outside the womb... ah, it's all complicated! At that stage, the mother's pretty much stuck with the unpleasant stuff anyway, so - except in a few specific cases - I can't really see much of a reason not to allow it to reach full term.

I think I'm just really not comfortable with the idea of taking away (or trying to take away) a person's autonomy. I mean, you can have laws against things, but they won't actively prevent someone determined to do it. They'll just provide disincentives and all that.
A lack of proper, regulated clinics for abortions is only really reducing the safety of the procedure, not whether it happens or not, so... it seems that preventing clinics being open and available would probably reduce the number of abortions a bit, but is that really worth the lives of the people who are desperate enough to have it done in less safe environments? It's going to happen whether it's legal or not, so I'd prefer to ensure the safety of the existing, relatively independent humans over the unborn ones.


* ...can you tell that I'm perhaps a bit too fond of the compose key?

[This post edited by DementedLeaf on 01 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 01 July 2011 8:01 PM
Tiresias
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quoting: ThePsychedelicFactory
quoting: Tiresias
People are obstinately stupid. Not that much to discuss, not that much to do about it.[\quote]I'm not sure it's fair to say there's nothing to discuss because you are in favour of it. Just sayin'.


Oh, I'm fine with talking about abortion in general (and in detail). Just that I've had/heard this conversation and so many others like it over and over again and it's just gotten really tiring because there's just always this stand-still on both sides once we reach core beliefs. On the other hand, since you're really intelligent I'd be happy to hear more from you about it. I too am not in favour of horrifically prolonged and painful abortions, but those aren't what most are like.

[This post edited by Tiresias on 01 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 01 July 2011 8:33 PM
Tiresias
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Click for profile 		Also, I will readily say that much of common pro-choice reasoning is suspect. I'll elaborate further when it's not Canada Day and I'm not at a party drinking wine straight out of a bottle... just a bit of a lull right now in this one ;P

[This post edited by Tiresias on 01 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 01 July 2011 8:40 PM
Secrets*Untold
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Click for profile 		Banning it outright is pretty stupid. As Leila said, its going to happen regardless of whether its legal or not, and given the even more catastrophic outcomes of illegal abortions I think its pretty stupid to risk it.

However on the actual subject of abortion, I was always adamantly pro-choice, and still to a degree am. However I'm sick of the cavalier attitude towards it. Even on spank you see people acting like it. I'm disgusted when I hear people talking of it and say things like "are you getting rid then?" or when someone on here once told someone to go get rid before even thinking they could possibly want to continue the childs life.

Before 8 weeks personally I don't believe its a baby, because it is still a clump of cells, but to me after 12 weeks you should suck it up and deal with the pregnancy then either give up for adoption or raise it on your own. Pregnancy is relatively safe this day and age so thats a pretty moot argument (providing the person in question doesnt have some illness that will make pregnancy life threatening, in which case....then the obvious answer is abortion as the existing life has to take precedence)

To me, the whole thing about abortion and safe sex is becoming a bit of a joke now, people have this thing about getting the morning after pill, or taking a course of medication to deal with the STI instead of aactually just being safe in the first place....guh sorry went off at a rant there

And I know this probably isnt very intelligible (its early, im tired and distracted) But I am tending to lean towards Ruth on this argument.
quote / posted 02 July 2011 3:26 AM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		Beth - with the exception of the specific dates, I don't think I disagree with anything you've just said... I don't know enough to decide where I'd limit things with the dates.

What about cases where the person is on harmful medications? By the time the pregnancy's discovered, it would most likely have already caused harm.
What about hereditary problems?

The (usually) religious idea that contraceptives are bad - I've always kinda wondered why the people holding it bother. I mean, if you've got an omnipotent deity and s/he wants a particular child to be born, contraceptives aren't exactly going to prevent it, surely? From a human perspective, it'd be easier to cause a few things to happen than preventing thousands, but I guess that wouldn't be an issue for a god.
Ruth - I'm particularly interested in your perspective on this, especially as life presumably wouldn't have begun, as far as you're concerned, pre-conception... though I'm also not entirely sure what I'm even asking Smile
quote / posted 02 July 2011 8:23 AM
billybob_george
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Click for profile 		What I have a problem with is the backhanded way they went about it. Abortion isn't illegal in Kansas. There just aren't any licensed and legal abortion providers because of the ridiculous regulations. Regardless of my own feelings on abortion, which are neither here nor there, this is so sneaky and I hate it.

[This post edited by billybob_george on 02 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 02 July 2011 8:25 AM
GhanaGurl_42
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[This post edited by Evanich on 08 December 2011 ]

quote / posted 02 July 2011 12:09 PM
DementedLeaf
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Click for profile 		To be fair, the other bit wasn't really... necessarily relevant to your initial post
quote / posted 02 July 2011 12:34 PM
sweetpealv123
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quoting: billybob_george
What I have a problem with is the backhanded way they went about it. Abortion isn't illegal in Kansas. There just aren't any licensed and legal abortion providers because of the ridiculous regulations. Regardless of my own feelings on abortion, which are neither here nor there, this is so sneaky and I hate it.

[This post edited by billybob_george on 02 July 2011 ]



That's my problem with it. They're acting like Roe v Wade only exists so they can find ways to circumvent it. It's absolutely underhanded.

Also, they made a good point about hospitals not having to conform to these standards for other operations. To single out one type of surgical procedure because some people have objections to it is wrong.
quote / posted 02 July 2011 12:40 PM
billybob_george
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Click for profile 		Yes, Evan. It wasn't relevant in a debate thread. But since you see fit to mention it..for what it's worth, I said that I am not anti-abortion, but that I judge people who get abortions, because barring proper birth control failure or rape, you got pregnant because you're a fucking moron. The other bit was kind of personal re: my potential inability to have children, so I resent people who can, but don't bother wrapping it up and instead get pregnant and choose to damage their bodies (through abortion or unwanted pregnancy) for no fucking reason.

I also said that the fact that I tend to think you're a moron if you've had an abortion isn't something I particularly like about myself, because I'm not a really judgmental person and I try to get over it, because people make mistakes.

[This post edited by billybob_george on 02 July 2011 ]

quote / posted 02 July 2011 5:04 PM
Secrets*Untold
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quoting: billybob_george
Yes, Evan. It wasn't relevant in a debate thread. But since you see fit to mention it..for what it's worth, I said that I am not anti-abortion, but that I judge people who get abortions, because barring proper birth control failure or rape, you got pregnant because you're a fucking moron. The other bit was kind of personal re: my potential inability to have children, so I resent people who can, but don't bother wrapping it up and instead get pregnant and choose to damage their bodies (through abortion or unwanted pregnancy) for no fucking reason.

I also said that the fact that I tend to think you're a moron if you've had an abortion isn't something I particularly like about myself, because I'm not a really judgmental person and I try to get over it, because people make mistakes.

[This post edited by billybob_george on 02 July 2011 ]



I can understand what you're saying 100% here Sad!

Leila....In 90% of cases people find out they're pregnant within 8 weeks....by which point I'd be inclined to believe that any baby thats harmed from medication will probably have been spontaneously aborted anyway. And if not, at 12 weeks you will probably know when they do the first scan as theyre amazingly detailed now, so thats a decision that can be made then. As I'm a firm believer in if the childs life is going to be nothing but pain and illness, then that child deserves to not have to experience that.
quote / posted 03 July 2011 2:28 AM

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