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Argument from evil (52 posts)
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Atheist
Inactive This has long been an Atheist's philosophical proof for disproving God in the context Christian mythology defines it.

The argument can be forumlated as follows:

Define Set P as properties of the said God as defined by the Bible :

1) God is omnibenevolent
2) God is omniscient
3) God is omnipresent or transcendental of time and space
4) God is omnipotent or all-powerful

The argument itself...

1) Evil is now known to exist in our world.
2) God has not stopped this evil
3) He has done this either because he cannot (not omnipotent) or because he doesn't want to (not omnibenevolent).
Thus:

4) God cannot exist in the said context of properties P as they are contradictory to themselves, that most Christians tend to follow
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:17 PM
fiera33
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Click for profile 		however...you left out the deists.

He does not control things; he chooses not to, because he gave us free will.

...ya. that's weak, i know, but i'm 12, what do you expect?

i'm a deist though. . . not christian.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:21 PM
Atheist
Inactive Ah the free will objection. That is actually quite a point coming from someone your age. However, it is still wrong.

1) Free will undermines the omnipotence and omniscience of a God, as he cannot control all things if we control some.

2) Free will runs contrary to a lot of biblical fate belief and even Darwinian Evolution. Darwin concluded that free will doesn't exist because of natural selection.

3) No matter the origin of the evil, the argument still stands. I am by no means saying God is the root of all evil. Rather, I am saying he is choosing not to stop the evil even if mankind did create it
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:28 PM
twelve:twenty
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Click for profile 		ah, but atheist, you are assuming that because we want something to happen, it will happen. things don't always go as we'd like them to - we don't control anything. we just choose for ourselves in the situations we can control. god still controls everything - or chooses not to.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:33 PM
fiera33
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Click for profile 		1)But he chose to give us the free will. he chooses to not control it...it's his gift to us.

2)screw the bible; it's mostly bull. some nice guidelines andpretty songs in there though.

3)ah. but what IS evil? what IS good?
hmm?
are they just standards that humans decided to create?
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:33 PM
Atheist
Inactive 1)But he chose to give us the free will. he chooses to not control it...it's his gift to us.

2)screw the bible; it's mostly bull. some nice guidelines andpretty songs in there though.

3)ah. but what IS evil? what IS good?
hmm?
are they just standards that humans decided to create?

---
My reply:

1) This still shows he is unkind. Only a cruel god would allow evil to exist regardless of the reason. You are completely missing the point.

2) If you believe god to exist in a different context from the Bible then please tell me.

3) Good and evil are infact childish subjective words, I could not agree more my friend.. However I am assuming the definitions of the Christian church. This thread is more of a debate of Traditional Christianity (not deism) vs.
Atheism.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:56 PM
Atheist
Inactive To go further beyond the context of the bible, god still cannot be proven to exist. There is no evidence for his supposed existence. Faith is merely accepting something with no logical basis to do so. Atheism needs no proof because it makes no claim. It is the absence of faith. That is the presumption of Atheism.

Example:

If I said a green man existed, I would have to prove to most people he existed rather than telling them to disprove him. That is the logic behind a supernatural claim.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 5:58 PM
fiera33
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Click for profile 		*waits for jesusfreak to get on*

this is going to be funny...


---

anyway, athiest...one cannot exist without the other. good and evil, i mean. without evil, the world would be a boring, blah, almost nonexistent place. where would the variety be?
quote / posted 18 June 2002 6:01 PM
twelve:twenty
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Click for profile 		who says a god who allows evil to exist is cruel? perhaps the evil exists to shape those who experience it. to test them like s/he tested job. to make those who experience it better people.

where do you get off on this tired argument anyways, atheist?
quote / posted 18 June 2002 6:04 PM
fiera33
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Click for profile 		you'll like this
quote / posted 18 June 2002 6:11 PM
Noise
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Click for profile 		As a human culture we have an obtuse idea of evil. We see things that are bad and lable them evil. And for centuries we have accepted the fact that you can't have one without the other. A balance of sorts ....

We must realize, if we desire to become enlightened, that Evil and Good are one thing. Its true that you cant have good without evil, not because they are opposites but because they are the same.
Example.
a bad thing happens, someone gets hurt. from that bad event. this person learns. His knowledge is now increased. He has bettered himself. There is the good.
At surface level I appear to be contradicting myself. But really think about it. if you break down every bad thing there is a good beneath it. So this must mean that there is only good. Right! but the lable "good" has an opposite "bad" . And once we let go of that lable and view the universe through those eyes we begin to see the true nature of reality and all of its beauty.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 6:23 PM
twelve:twenty
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Click for profile 		ohmygod! fifi! that site is horrible! but funny.

where do you GET these places from?
quote / posted 18 June 2002 6:26 PM
Atheist
Inactive Who is this jesusfreak? Please tell me. As for your objections I am done speaking with you people about this. I want to know who jesusfreak is. Is this person going to supposedly argue with me or is he/she a clown?
quote / posted 18 June 2002 9:10 PM
Atheist
Inactive The objection I am hearing all around seems to be the "boring" of a world without evil or that we need evil to understand good.

This is an utter fabrication. I do not need evil to understand good. I can understand that winning 10 billion dollars is good without losing it. I can understand sex feels good without having my genital removed. Evil is not needed to understand good or vice versa. Then can be deduced through mere common sense.

To the person that said a world without evil would be boring needs to do some serious thought before posting here ever again. A world without evil would be a world without war and suffering. Are you telling me these are fun parts of life you could not do without? I do not understand this line of reasoning at all. Are you just talking to hear yourself?
quote / posted 18 June 2002 9:13 PM
Atheist
Inactive Fiera33: If you are implying anything with that site, I never called Jesus evil... Please read into my post next time.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 9:23 PM
supporter graphic  Dante
(386k) Adored
Shoegazer
Click for profile 		My english teacher said this riddle in class "If god is omnipotent, can he create a rock so heavy that even he cannot carry it."

The Answer is easy, Yes. We already said he was omnipotent which means he can do anything. I for one am an Atheist but i don't belive it is my personal crusade to disprove religion.
quote / posted 18 June 2002 9:28 PM
Atheist
Inactive Well that would be circular logic to argue Dante. Saying god is omnipotent then trying to disprove or prove it. The word "supposedly" shouldbe placed in there and then I think it becomes more clear.
quote / posted 19 June 2002 6:25 PM
supporter graphic  Dante
(386k) Adored
Shoegazer
Click for profile 		Atheist I was responding to your begging logic which was using the bible and then trying to disprove it with in its on failures. The bible says god is all-powerful, so He should be able to do any thing, even the things that are contradictory.
quote / posted 19 June 2002 7:03 PM
katylyn
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Click for profile 		Where on EARTH does it ever say in the bible that God is Omnibenevolent? As I recall, the God of the old testament was downright nasty. God is said to be merciful, but that is another thing all together. Sounds like a straw man to me.

[This post edited by katylyn on 19 June 2002 ]

quote / posted 19 June 2002 7:23 PM
supporter graphic  Dante
(386k) Adored
Shoegazer
Click for profile 		But a guy named Atheist wouldn't make up something to prove his point, would he?
quote / posted 19 June 2002 7:29 PM

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